Episode 100: Yes, But Also No

Male VO: 0:03

This is Bad Attitudes.

Laura: 0:20

Hello Friends and Strangers, and welcome to episode 100 of Bad Attitudes, an uninspiring podcast about disability. I'm your host, Laura . Guys. I'm not alone. This week's supporter shout out , goes out to every single one of you. Whether this is your first time tuning in or you've been here since episode one, thank you. Thank you for listening, for sharing, for subscribing, for donating. Thank you for emailing me your thoughts. All of it has helped me become a better person and a better podcast host. I wouldn't have made it this far if it weren't for all of you, here's to 100 more episodes. If you're interested in supporting the podcast, be sure to check out the Ko-Fi page at ko-fi.com/BadAttitudesPod. You can subscribe to one of seven membership tiers for special perks, like bonus episodes, book reviews, a virtual book club, and the opportunity to g uest on an episode. Tiers start at just $2 per month, and your support helps keep the pod running. If subscribing isn't for you, you can also make one-time donations through Ko-Fi, and each donation will be shouted out in a future episode. But there is no pressure to subscribe or donate. Sharing and interacting with the podcast is incredibly helpful. The best way to grow the podcast and our community is through word of mouth. So if you like this episode, be sure to share it with your friends. Leaving a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform really helps me out. For questions, comments, or ideas, email BadAttitudesPod@gmail.com or reach out through social media. Follow @BadAttitudesPod on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. As always, I want to remind you that disability is not a monolith. My experience as a disabled person is going to be different from the experiences of other disabled people. I am one voice for the disabled community, but I'm not the only voice. All right ? So if you've been paying attention, you will know that this is the 100th episode of Bad Attitudes: an Uninspiring podcast about disability, which is pretty surprising to me because I never thought I'd get past like episode 30 at best. So if you've been around since the beginning, I really appreciate you. I appreciate you listening. Appreciate you sharing the podcast. And because it's a special episode, I'm doing something I've never done before. I have a guest, there is another person I know, it's shocking. So I would like you all to welcome my very good friend, Jonathan Bradshaw . He and I, we have known each other for, I don't know, a millennia give or take a Century. Uh, we met in like the seventh grade, and I am just really excited for him to be our first guest. So thanks for joining us, Jon.

Jonathan: 3:31

Uh, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Laura: 3:34

So

Jonathan: 3:34

I'm excited.

Laura: 3:35

Yeah, it's exciting and like, hopefully I don't screw it up too bad.

Jonathan: 3:40

Well , you chose me as your first guest, so strike one.

Laura: 3:43

Okay. Well then that's outta the way. I don't have to worry about anything else. So the reason I asked Jon , um, Jon and I actually reconnected when I did my TED Talk last year. He was another one of the speakers, and I will link , um, the video of his speech in the episode notes, so you can go check that out. It's really cool. It's , um, what's it called between the seat, the

Jonathan: 4:07

Seat to the seat to feet investment philosophy, spend money on things between your seat and your feet.

Laura: 4:13

I didn't relate to the shoe thing, but I totally related to the tires that that got me. So we reconnected, and the reason I asked him is 'cause he asked me a question when we were sitting just hanging out , um, during one of the rehearsals or something. And do you wanna tell me, tell us what that question was? Do you remember?

Jonathan: 4:31

Yeah, I do. Yeah. So I had asked you, do you consider me disabled?

Laura: 4:37

Right. And so, and that actually got me thinking about a topic I had been wanting to cover, which is the difference between the legal definition of disability and the social definition of disability. And before we get into all that, and like whether or not Jon is disabled, why don't you tell us your story about going from being non-disabled to maybe possibly we don't know yet being disabled — to be determined.

Jonathan: 5:08

It's a weird limbo. Um, sure. So , uh, at age 40, I , uh, began to have some , uh, we'll call it irregular bathroom moments. And I began to feel , um, not , uh, whatever air quote normal would be right. So I was going to the bathroom more frequently. I , uh, it was more and more uncomfortable and , uh, and normally I would pull what the stereotypical male would do, and that's to say, oh it's fine, I'm just getting older and, and roll with it. But when you know something's not wrong or not right with yourself, you know, something's not right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and being raised by an ER nurse, I'm very comfortable going into a doctor's office and saying, Hey, something's not right. So , uh, the day that my medical coverage, I had just started a new job. So the day my medical coverage kicked in, I went to my general physician and told him about my symptoms. He immediately sent me to a , uh, gastroenterologist, and I told him he scheduled me for a colonoscopy. And as I woke up outta that colonoscopy, he said, I'm supposed to wait for a biopsy, but I know what I saw, and you have colorectal cancer. Um , so my cancer, after they, you know, did the biopsy and measured everything and then did CT scans and stuff, I , uh, was in the very beginning of stage three , uh, rectal cancer. Um, I had some lymph node involvement and things were cutting across. And , um, so , uh, after months of , uh, chemo and radiation, I then , uh, had surgery. So they basically took out everything from my colon to the exit. And , um, and so I ended up with a stoma and so, or a colostomy bag. Um, we refer to each other as ostomates or , um, and that's the kind of the community. So I , you know, I ended up with this , uh, this ostomy bag. And of course, like anything, when your life changes like that and you've got time recovering from a major operation, you go on the internet and do research. And so, you know, I found some really cool communities and some support groups, but one of the hottest debates that, that I would read is, you know, people saying I'm handicapped. And then someone would correct them and go, no, I'm not, you know , you're not. You know, you just poop in a different way. Yeah. And , uh, you know, and, and I , I noticed there was some division on some lines of like, how you got there. Right? Right . So, like, if you, if if it ended up like , uh, like at Matthew Perry where it was from , uh, you know, from painkillers, you know, basically stopping your digestive system to Yeah . People like me ,

Laura: 8:02

I just read his book.

Jonathan: 8:03

w ith cancer. M m-Hmm. < affirmative> O h.

Laura: 8:04

Broke My Heart.

Jonathan: 8:05

Um , I have some, some strong feelings about some of the things that he said in that book, and we can get to that later. Um , um, we'll do that later after . Yeah . Yeah . But so there , uh, you know, there's people who, who kind of in that camp who feel like , uh, it's just a , a side effect and are a byproduct, and, and you're not actually handicapped. And then there are people , um, who kind of couple it with, with another condition like Crohn's or , um, you know, IBS or, you know, diverticulitis and, and things like that where, you know, it , that the two things coupled together creates the handicap. So , um, I had been thinking about it for a while and, and I don't know that I ever adopted a, you know, a , a hard stance on it. And , uh, growing up with you, you're the reason that I, when I drive by a , uh, uh, a handicapped parking space and I look for the placard, and, you know, I get angry when I don't see one , um, when I, you know, see a ramp .

Laura: 9:04

Don't forget to check the license plate, check the license plate,

Jonathan: 9:07

<laugh>, it's gotta match. I , I loved it in when I lived in Chicago and they put the person's photo on the tag. I thought that was

Laura: 9:13

Brilliant. Yes , I want that.

Jonathan: 9:14

Um , they need to do that here. It's

Laura: 9:16

Like, I mean, it's dangerous in one way, but like so many times I see people, this is so off topic , so many times I see people who don't need to park in those spaces who have taken someone else's tag Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , and are like, oh, yeah. I mean, I see it all the time, like when I go out to the amphitheater to go to a concert all the time, and

Jonathan: 9:37

It's like, I've gotten preachy with some relatives about ,

Laura: 9:39

And I'm

Jonathan: 9:39

Like, and that's because of you and your mom. Yeah . So I, we were riding after high school with you guys.

Laura: 9:43

My mom w ould k ick y our ass.

Jonathan: 9:45

< laugh>. I r emember one time, uh, your mom parked behind a car at Target, and, uh, because they didn't have it and had called the police. And I was like, y ou k now, I'm never doing that and I don't so good job. U m, but, but even thinking about it with like, which stalls I use in Y eah. You know, in the men's room. And, um, so anyway, that's, that's how I arrived at that question. Yeah.

Laura: 10:06

I mean, okay. So one thing I'm gonna say that you didn't get from me, you keep using the H word and, you know, I hate that. Oh,

Jonathan: 10:14

Yeah. I'm sorry. I gotta get that outta my lexicon.

Laura: 10:16

I mean, it's very, it's so common and, you know, yeah. Especially when we were growing up , um, that was all you heard. Pretty much.

Jonathan: 10:24

It was, but I should use disabled. That's a better moniker. Yeah .

Laura: 10:28

But , you know, so I I

Jonathan: 10:30

I'll do better.

Laura: 10:31

I wrist-slapped you for that one . I you for that one. But yeah, I mean, that was gonna be my first question. Do you consider yourself disabled? And I guess it would come down to what , what you see as being disabled, you know what I mean?

Jonathan: 10:46

Right. So , um, being an avid listener to the podcast <laugh> , I , I , I kind of , I understand the difference between , um, like kind of the medical and social definition. Um, you've gone over that before. Um, and I started to research the legal , and I'm like, no, I'm gonna let this conversation happen more organically. Yeah. Um , in general, I would say that I don't consider myself , um, disabled because I be , you know, and I , I think it's more that , uh, environmental aspect of like, there's not much that I can't do. Right. Um , because of it. You know, I , I , I play golf, I do , uh, you know, things where I bend at the waist and like, there's just no, there's , you know, other than , uh, staying extremely quiet in a meeting, <laugh> and I inevitably am gonna fart out of it, and it's gonna make a loud noise, and everybody's gonna look at me and be like, oh yeah, we forgot <laugh> . Um, and the fact that most people can forget about it. Yeah. Um , but it, but it does go under that , uh, category of kind of the invisible disabilities, right ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Like, there are people who, who have those like chronic illnesses or chronic pain and, and things like that . And , um, it's, it's more like chronic inconvenience, really more than anything else. Yeah . Yeah . So I , I would generally lean, no, but I will say I never even considered it even after surgery until I had to fill out a , uh, workplace accommodation form. So , Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , um, um, when I first had my surgery, I could not sit for more than two to three minute . I had to , I couldn't sit on my bottom for a month. Oh . And then I could really only sit for a very short amount of time while I was healing. Right. And so I had, you know, I had to get a workplace accommodation for a standing desk, and so my, my workplace paid for it and put it in, and so I could come into the office. They also got me one from my house so I could stand and work from home. Um, and then I , uh, I take supplies with me to empty my bag and to, to clean up afterwards. And so , um, in the, in the disabled stall at the end of the bathroom where there is space to actually put stuff, there was no , no surface for me to put anything down. Right . So I , I carry like a little bag with me. And, and so I filled out another workplace accommodation form to , um, to get a shelf installed. And Yeah. Literally before I even emailed the form over, they were already putting the shelf in. So like, you know, the accommodations were quick. Um, and they're not, you know, to me they weren't like, I absolutely have to have 'em , but they, they do make my life easier and, you know, easier for me to take care of my business in there. And , um, and I've heard one employee refer to it as Jonathan Shelf. And so I was like, oh, that's, that's weird that you even associate that with me while you're sitting on the toilet. But cool. <laugh> , um, I'm in there with you. So ,

Laura: 13:33

Well, I mean, one, the fact that the accommodations were that quick is really good. 'cause that is not normal <laugh> , like,

Jonathan: 13:42

But a private German company, they're gonna , Yeah. I mean, they're pretty cool about it.

Laura: 13:45

And that was one thing I was gonna point out is that you sort of straddle this line of where your disability is invisible. Like, like Yeah, I know. And like, if I see the outline of your bag under your shirt, I'm be like, oh yeah, that's his ostomy bag fine. But you also straddle this line of having a visible piece of evidence to be like, oh, hey, you know, check this out. Which I think a lot of people with like chronic illness, chronic pain, they don't have that, you know, they don't have that evidence to back up what they're saying, which is why a lot of people have a hard time accepting that those illnesses are as bad as they are. Because I know people with like, fibromyalgia and like the pain level is off the charts for them, but like, because you can't see it, a lot of people don't take it that seriously. So I think

Jonathan: 14:45

I completely agree. Yeah.

Laura: 14:46

You have a sort of a, I don't know , the wording is weird, but <laugh> , you have sort of a bonus in that you have a physical manifestation of what is essentially an invisible situation.

Jonathan: 15:02

Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's a battle scar or a , um, it , you know , people refer to it as an appliance or something. Yeah . But it's an aid . Right, right . That helps me function, air quote normally. Yeah . But , um, it doesn't disrupt my daily life. It o of the physical manifestations, I would say it's probably one of the lighter ones, not Oh , yeah . I'm , I, I try it , I'll cost to avoid what I call comparative misery. Yeah . You know, a lot of people will tell their story and then go, well, it's not as bad as what you went through. And I'm like, I , you don't have to qualify your misery for me. Like, that's, you know.

Laura: 15:37

Yeah. I think, I think that's really , um, dangerous. The , uh, you know, I mean, there's that whole , um, sort of adage of comparison is the thief of joy, which is sort of the opposite. But you know, like growing up I heard a lot like, oh, you could be so much worse off. And I'm like, that doesn't negate what I'm feeling. It just makes me not wanna talk about it.

Jonathan: 15:59

Yeah. It's also probably a thief of empathy as well . Yeah . It's like you spend so much time comparing, it's like, just try to relate Yeah . On the , and I mean, and , and I , you know, me, I do sometimes sort of jokingly go, oh, well that sounds horrible. You know, when somebody brings up something that I'm like, Hmm . That just, Oh, your inconvenient walking. Yes.

Laura: 16:19

Oh gosh, I had to walk up a flight of stairs. What is that? Like? I have no idea. So yeah. I mean, no, I get that

Jonathan: 16:27

We all fall guilty to it. Oh, yeah. The , your point about it being , um, kind of me being a tweener, I think is , is exactly what I'm feeling in that, in, in that moment, even when I asked you, because , uh, you know, I, if you guys can't tell, I got the face for radio, but this, this is, there's

Laura: 16:45

No video video . This is all audio

Jonathan: 16:47

<laugh> . Oh, thank goodness. I am a white male, cisgender, heterosexual male. Right. Like, so those are those kind of labels I was born with. Right? Yeah. And then there's like the labels that you, you choose. So I'm a proud, I don't know , ally on a , a liberal, I'm woke, I'm an atheist. I, there's many things that I choose that I chose to be, or, or , you know, have chosen to identify with. And this thing's kind of in the middle. Right. I, I have moments when I can completely be under the radar and , and there are plenty of people at work or in my social life who have no idea that this thing exists. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um , and then there's, you know , my entire until now , right. Well, and then there , well, and , and , but I also do some mild activism for people. Yeah . And I , and I, I , uh, I work with a company that makes adaptable clothing, and I, I do other things , um, to be part of that community, but also, like, I still take my shirt off at the pool, at the neighborhood pool, and everybody sees it and , you know, and I don't , I don't do anything to hide it . If anything , anything. I like a nice fashionable bag cover to put over it.

Laura: 17:52

You have always been a fashion icon <laugh>.

Jonathan: 17:57

Someone's gotta do it.

Laura: 17:58

I mean, really, because it's not gonna be me <laugh>. Um , so that does bring up a good point. Has anybody approached you, like, about your back ? Like kids or adults, have they done anything really annoying? <laugh>

Jonathan: 18:11

Kids are the best. 'cause they, they will straight up ask. And, you know, I remember sitting at the pool this past summer and , um, he , a guy I was talking to and, and, and his son walked just literally put his finger right on it and said, what is that? And, and his dad was beyond embarrassed. And I'm like, dude, it's okay. Yeah . It's, you know, it's a freaking curious child. Like , um, and he at least had the courage to look me in the eye and ask, you know, like, that's, I I'm good with that. Uh , I didn't get mopped for it. Um, and then I, you know, I've had people , um, uh, ask like security guards , uh, when I go to , uh, basketball games or , or sporting events , uh, and they, they pat me down or they just see a bulge under my shirt. Yeah. And , uh, assume I'm smuggling in booze. And , uh, and they're very disappointed when I lift my shirt or , or they feel in instantly like, horrible that or mortified that they asked . Yeah . Um, and I'm like, it's okay , you know, you're doing your job. It's okay. Like if, you know , um, uh, airport screeners as well , um, tend to , <laugh> tend to ask, but adults generally don't. And most of them who hear me audibly make a noise with it or , um, you know , see the bulge when , uh, uh, it gets , starts to get full or something like that. I just straight up just tell 'em what it is . <laugh> . Yeah. So , um, it's just way easier. And, and I've, that's how I've handled things my whole life. But I always say, I make the joke about myself first so that you can't make the joke. Yeah . Uh , that self-deprecating kind of humor, that's, that's the way I handle the ostomy bag too.

Laura: 19:46

Yeah. I mean, I mean, and I think that's a good way to do it. You know, I did , um, Junior's podcast the other day , uh, be on the lookout for that. I don't know when it's coming out. But, you know, and we were talking about, and I was like, you know, you'll find a lot of disabled people. We actually have kind of a gallows humor , um, where we make a lot of jokes about sort of the dark side, because the thing is, we've already processed it, you know, like we've already been through, we've already been through the trauma. We've already, you know, sort we've dealt with it, whether we've dealt with it well is up for an argument, but we've dealt with it, so like we can make jokes about it. And people can't get real uncomfortable if you start joking about your situation because they're like, I would never, like , you don't have to, but I can, you know, kind of thing.

Jonathan: 20:36

Yeah . Well , uh, they're just gonna have to be uncomfortable, I guess.

Laura: 20:40

I mean , yeah . That's, that's kind of where I'm at at this point, is you shouldn't have to deal with it. So , back to the legal versus social definition. So I pulled it up, and this is according to the social security website, which is the law defines disability as the inability to engage in any substantial gainful activity by reason of any medically determinable physical or mental impairments, which can be expected to result in death, or which has lasted or can be expected to last, last for a continuous period of not less than 12 months, which I'm like, I'm not , I don't , I don't know how I feel about that definition because Yeah. I mean,

Jonathan: 21:28

I don't know what the hell that means. Yeah . Like , it's, it's super ambiguous. Um , well , you know , my condition is the government

Laura: 21:34

Well, you know, it is the government

Jonathan: 21:35

<laugh> fair point. I, you know, a a lot of people with ostomies also have have them reversed, and so they're able to ask , especially.

Laura: 21:43

I was gonna ask about that . Yeah. So some of them can , um, uh, I remember my doctor saying, yours never will be, and , uh, the, like, the muscles that control your bowel movements are some of the most complex muscles in the body. And so he, he was frank, he's like, the , literally the last thing that they're gonna figure out how to do is replace those. Yeah . So not in your lifetime. Um, but , uh, it is , it , so it is permanent, but I I, there was part of that definition that said , um, substantially hindered or, yeah , it's , It's defines disability as the, in inability to engage in any substantial gainful activity. But then I'm like, well, what's a substantial gainful activity

Jonathan: 22:29

That feels almost like they're just defining it by your ability to work, or your ability to gainful employment is usually defined as a given

Laura: 22:39

This is the social security website probably, right? Yeah . But I think, I mean, I think it, it boils down to the fact that, you know, I said , I have said the legal definition of disability is much broader than the social definition, because legally people with chronic illness are protected, people with mental illness are protected. Um, whether those protections are good enough is a different argument. But you can be protected under the ADA if you suffer with depression or if you suffer with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or whatever. Um, and you are protected if you have a chronic illness like fibromyalgia , um, even if you have cancer, like that's protected under the ADA.

Jonathan: 23:27

Oh,

Laura: 23:28

Yeah. Uh , but socially, I mean, I think if you , uh, if you did the Family Feud method and surveyed a hundred people and asked them what's disability? A whole lot of their answers are gonna look a whole lot like me.

Jonathan: 23:42

Yes. They're gonna, and they're gonna have to do with either an apparatus that helps, so crutches or , uh, wheelchairs or ramps and prosthetic legs Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and things like that.

Laura: 23:56

Yeah. I mean, there's a reason the universal symbol for disability is a stick figure in a wheelchair. Like, I mean, that's, people have a very narrow definition of what disability is and what it means, which, you know, I think we see a lot , um, especially when people are surprised by how much I can do or how capable I am . I mean, do you think that's true?

Jonathan: 24:26

Borderline insulting? Yeah. I think , um, or not borderline, it's absolutely insulting. Um, yeah. I, I do think it's narrow. I think I, I I , I think one of the luckiest , uh, things in the world , uh, was gaining empathy through, through our friendship. Right? Yeah . Like, so I literally grew up together. So I kind of, I , I had at least some of your perspective , um, and, and other people around , um, to, to kind of bounce that off of. But I, yeah, it's, I think you just grow up and it's so narrow, especially if it's, it doesn't affect you directly. Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like you , um, you only see what you see. And so that's, that's how we take in our, you know, a lot of our knowledge and we're not going out and , and reading or, or finding people out in, in media. And it definitely, you know, 20, 20, 30 years ago was not represented in Oh , no . Television and movies or anything like that. Um, o other than like, in a, in a token way. Yeah. Um, yeah. So anyway, yeah, it's super narrow and , and it , that, but that feels extremely broad, which

Laura: 25:33

The, the legal definition feels extremely broad or the ,

Jonathan: 25:37

It , it does. Yeah. It , I think, you know, the , you could construe anything as , uh, uh, a hindrance, although it's, it again, it still feels like it's subjective to your ability to earn money. Yeah . And not any kind of, like, I don't really know if there is an appropriate way to measure. 'cause it affects people so , uh, differently Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in different ways. Right. Because I would argue like you wouldn't want to use quality of life , um, as a measure, because I have the highest quality of life I've ever had right now. Well,

Laura: 26:11

And it also depends on what other people perceive this quality of life. 'cause I remember during the height of Covid , I think it was in Texas, there was a man, he was paralyzed. He lived in a facility, but he was married, he had a wife, and the doctors wouldn't put him on a ventilator because Oh, well, his quality of life. And I'm like, his wife is literally trying to get you to save this man's life. But you're saying his life isn't worth saving. Like how do you determine that? You know, it's not like he's 110 years old, you know, and stays in bed all the time. You know, like how, and even that, I'm like, well, I shouldn't be qualifying it, but, you know, how do you qualify quality of life?

Jonathan: 27:00

That is, that is an entire profession , um, yeah . Of medical ethicists who do that. And it's insane. I I've met one, so, and that seems like really , I like you a heavy job. I want nothing to do with That'd be a , a great guest for

Laura: 27:16

Sure . That's what I was saying. I'm like, that'd be good to talk to. But , um, yeah, like, I would, I mean, I don't, I don't know how, I don't like, we're, like, for those of you who don't know, my dog Murphy was recently diagnosed with cancer, and we're , um, at the point of recording, we are, we still haven't met with an oncologist. We don't know exactly what the next steps are, but we talk about quality of life, you know? So like, if he go undergoes chemotherapy or some sort of treatment, you have to determine, okay, at what point is his quality of life affected ? And like, and it ,

Jonathan: 27:56

He can't communicate that to you

Laura: 27:57

Exactly. Like, I so wish we had trained our dogs with those stupid buttons that you see all over social media. I'm like, I know . You know, so like, I mean, if it's so hard to figure out for a dog, you know, who you have to make these decisions for, how do you make it for a human being who has their own perspective and has their own thoughts?

Jonathan: 28:22

Yeah. It was, it was amazing getting the diagnosis and, and then the first time I met with the surgeon, and , um, it was pretty obvious to me there was like a 10% chance I was gonna come out of this without a , uh, without a , a , a stoma. Um, that was really hard for me to accept. And it, and it seems so silly to me now that I'm on the backend and understand like, what it's like to, to have it, it really isn't all that bad. Um, it's an inconvenient thing, but it's really not horrible. Um, I, you know, at first I was like, sh I'll just die. Like, I had rather do that than to, to poop in a bag and smell my own poop all day long. You know, like, because you just go to the worst possible place. And I was like, well , it's not 1884 <laugh> , so, you know , I'm not,

Laura: 29:06

You're not dumping it into a gutter,

Jonathan: 29:09

A deer stomach, and Yeah. Wrapped around my waist. So like, I , um, but I, that was the whole journey I had to go on, right? Like , I had to go from oh hell no, to like, all right , this will be okay. And, you know, lucky for me, like, you took one look at my kids and was like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever said or thought. Yeah . And, which probably isn't true, but it, it was bad.

Laura: 29:30

I've known you since you were 12, it's definitely not the dumbest thing you've ever said.

Jonathan: 29:33

One hundred percent. Yeah . No .

Laura: 29:35

Um , yeah, I mean, I do that too, where I'm like, I look at something from the perspective of someone who's been disabled their whole life, and I'm like, seriously, that's what you're worried about? Like, I made that episode about Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> hearing aids and the hair. And I'm like, come on. Just like, I, I get it. Because like, I mean , I mean, I do the same thing immediately. You go to the worst case scenario, what are people gonna think? What are they gonna say? How are they gonna react? How are they gonna treat me? But at the same time, it's like, how do you not weigh those things? You know what I mean? Like, how do you not go, oh, okay. I could hear or I could continue being, you know, a total bitch because I'm ignoring people because I can't hear them, but hey, at least my hair will look good. You know what I mean? Yeah . And you know me , I'm vain about my hair.

Jonathan: 30:28

Think people <laugh> . Yeah . <laugh> , I think, well, it's fabulous. So I mean , it's , I think that people are , uh, more of, I think they're just afraid of the perception of, of other people and how they're going to, to take them . And, and you know, what I tend to find is that people who fear that are usually the same people who discount people with , uh, with a disability. And so they're basically seeing themselves through the lens that they've put others in, and they're like, oh, no. Yes . And, and I think sometimes that's a really harsh reality for some people to , um, yeah .

Laura: 31:07

To say , I , I off I agree. I often say that like, whatever horrible thing you think my life is is what you have perceived what your life would be like. Yeah . If you were in my , not in my situation. So you mentioned your kids, how did they handle the whole thing?

Jonathan: 31:29

Um, with grace and comedy? I think they , um,

Laura: 31:33

Well, they are your kids <laugh>

Jonathan: 31:35

Fair point. Um, that's where they get all the grace from, at least <laugh> . Yeah . Sarcasm. Uh , no, I think , uh, they were scared at first, you know, I mean, you hear the , the C word, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And so cancer is, is , um, even though it's almost most types are , are very survivable now. They still hear that and they're like, oh, dad's gonna die like this, you know? Um, but , uh, uh, you know, their, their mother came over and, and we told them together, and then we, you know, kind of talked through the steps and, and so , um, you know, they , uh, my daughter is, is an empath and so she kind of, you know, absorbed a lot of, a lot of my misery for me. And then my son is just like a, a a kind of a caring dotting type. So like, he was just , um, <laugh>, he was on his best behavior, and he was definitely, you know, just like constantly checking on me, constantly, like , um, you know, just making sure I was okay. And , um, I had literally just started dating someone and, and, you know, I , I was like, Hey, here's, here's an off ramp if you, you know, you didn't sign up for this, so, but if you wanna bail, and , and she didn't. So she's my wife now. And , uh, but they , yeah, they were, they were awesome. They don't really look at me any different. We, we named my , my stoma it is John St . Somos <laugh> . And it often does not have mercy , uh, on me, but so, so we , uh, we , we named it. And so I can blame John St . Somos for, for many things. So when, when John Somos lets one rip, it's , uh, it's just Uncle Jesse having a bad day, you know? Um, and , uh,

Laura: 33:19

Speaking as someone who , um, their first celebrity crush was John Stamos <laugh> .

Jonathan: 33:24

I do remember that. Yep . Yep . Oh , Anyway , um, and he still looks fabulous. He's probably like 60 something years old, and he is , he is maybe even better looking . Um, I mean , it's not fair.

Laura: 33:35

No. Mm-Hmm .

Jonathan: 33:37

But , uh, and, and you know, it's funny, I'm , I'm in my daughter's cell phone as Senor poop bag <laugh>. So that is , uh, you know, it's just become part of our lives. Yeah . And they think it's really funny when I show up on Instagram, you know, and or they show up on Instagram on a , you know , medical websites and stuff like that. Uh , they, they think that's really funny. So

Laura: 33:58

Has it , um, that's how they handle it. How do you handle like, the disability conversation with them? Or do you, have you ,

Jonathan: 34:05

Um, do

Laura: 34:05

You need me to come over and be like, Hey, what's up,

Jonathan: 34:08

<laugh> Um , I mean, you're welcome to, but I , it's not , uh, I, I explained to them, it was funny 'cause the , the one thing I did explain to them was, was when I did the workplace , um, accommodation forms, and I was like, Hey, do you guys know what the American with Disabilities Act is <laugh> , and here's, you know, and here's, here's what I'm doing. And especially when they came and dropped off the , uh, or set up the, the standing desk, they were like , uh, how did you get this? How'd you get it up here? 'cause it's really heavy. And , um, you know, and , and, and so I had to kind of explain where all that stuff came from and like why my, my work was compelled to do it. You know? I think they would've done it without that. But I, I think, you know, there's definitely some compulsion there that they, they do have to make accommodations and spend money. And I , and you know, we talked about being a legal , um, protected class. And, you know, I am, I am someone who is teaching my kids kind of a , you know, about things like white privilege and things about , um, kind of that , um, uh, not being an ableist and not Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> trying to, so I use these teachable moments as, as much as I possibly can , um, to, to,

Laura: 35:21

Do they have any disabled kids in there classes? 'cause I mean, you know, for most of our childhood, I was it.

Jonathan: 35:29

Yeah. You were, yeah. You were flying the flag.

Laura: 35:31

It was me . Um , Me and Sharaye occasionally she would show up every so often.

Jonathan: 35:35

Right. Well , you name dropped . You shouldn't do that.

Laura: 35:37

That , oh , she's gonna be on the podcast later,

Jonathan: 35:39

<laugh>. Oh, dope. That's so cool. Um, so I , uh, they have not , uh, at all, no, Uhuh I haven't seen, and, and it's, they have a, a diverse school from like a socioeconomic and race and , uh, perspective, but I have not seen that. It doesn't necessarily haven't of , yeah .

Laura: 36:01

Could be invisible,

Jonathan: 36:02

Could see their class, but it's also, are they in a different grade or, and then yeah. If there's, I'm sure there's plenty of students on five 20 nines and Yeah . Um, I've actually gone through the process of getting , uh, myself diagnosed with A DHD over the last less than a year. But , um, and then I'm actually, we next week starting with my son because it is now that I'm aware of the, all the symptoms I showed and, and, and all the things I had to do to kind of , uh, you know, coping mechanisms Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> to overcome , um, that in a classroom that wasn't in classrooms and, and , uh, a life setting that was not accommodating. Um, so I don't want my son to have to go through a lot of that stuff. Yeah . So, you know , we're, we're working on that now.

Laura: 36:47

Yeah. 'cause ADHD I mean, it was a thing when we grew up, but it wasn't like, recognized. Well , it , you know what I mean? Like,

Jonathan: 36:55

For me, I always remember in my elementary school , um, it was the , uh, the room across the hall from the gifted room. So it felt like a world away. And it was literally the opposite side. Like, you didn't want to go to the left, you wanted to go to the right Yeah . With the gifted kids. And you couldn't be both. Like, that was kind of my, like, it was a bifurcating hallway, Like you had to go.

Laura: 37:15

I had that really weird, that really weird , um, situation. 'cause I was in the gifted program, but I also had an IEP, but I was Yeah . but I was also the weird disabled, I mean, not weird, well, weird, but, you know, good weird.

Jonathan: 37:31

You're weird on your own, not because of your disabilities

Laura: 37:35

<laugh> ? No. Oh , I was just weird and disabled. Um , yeah . But you know, I had that , it was, it was very, it was, I mean, I really, what's really interesting I learned recently, and it shook my foundation, is that initially I did not test gifted <laugh> . And it shook me. My mom was like , really ? Yeah. They had to give me , oh , it's a different test or something. And I'm like, what

Jonathan: 38:02

Did it shake you? Because it's part of your identity. Yes. Like your intelligence is , is part of your identity. That makes sense. Yeah.

Laura: 38:08

Yeah . You know me, I'm always like, I am smart. Don't treat me like I'm not smart. I mean, yeah. It very , it very much like , like made me go, wait, wait a minute. What? I'm , I'm not gifted. Are you kidding? Like

Jonathan: 38:23

The Yeah . That it's a , go ahead. I was failing a class for the first time, so Yeah. Oh my god . You know, I did that in high school and then I failed another one in college, and I was like, I don't fail classes. But , um, yeah , it was more of a failure to learn than anything else. And, and it was going back to school 10 years later for, for my graduate degree and making straight A's . Yeah. Um, was not like me to do. I, you know, I was always an AB student because I couldn't quite figure out that last 10%. Yeah. Um, and , uh, you know, it , it was weird as an adult to, to be mature enough to, to have the coping mechanisms and also the discipline at that point to, to help myself. Yeah. Um, but man, I , I think I , I could have been a lot <laugh> . I know that I lament the fact that I know my grades and my academic performance could have been a lot better. And , uh, if I had the tools to, to get there.

Laura: 39:12

But I mean, you weren't, w eren't a bad student by any means. I m ean,

Jonathan: 39:16

No, no, I wasn't there because

Laura: 39:17

We were in all the , we were in all the same classes. <laugh>

Jonathan: 39:21

Yeah. And that's why I resisted any notion of it and in getting diagnosed. But , um, through my wife, I had a friend who was , uh, a , an an adult, A DH , ADHD or , and she went through the process of, of getting diagnosed and she would give me reading material because she was obviously astutely aware that I was also in the same spectrum that she was in. Yeah . And , um, and then one of , uh, Oliver's friends , um, his mom is a , uh, a PhD of child psychology. And, you know, we were, we were talking about her son who, who was diagnosed and, and we were talking about Oliver. And then I was like, yeah, it's weird. Like people keep saying that I have it, blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, and here's it . She's like, oh yeah, you do. Oh yeah, absolutely. And I was like, oh, like that.

Laura: 40:05

Well, yeah . I mean, my mom was diagnosed in her fifties. I mean, like, I don't know if she went through the whole process. 'cause I mean, you know, she worked , um, I hate this term, but she was a special ed teacher. Um , Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , you know , um, so she was, I don't know if she went through the whole process, she got put on Ritalin. And so like, I mean, it made a big difference for her, I think because she saw herself in her students and she's like, oh, I could have , if I'd had this growing up, I could have done X, Y , Z .

Jonathan: 40:46

Yeah. I think that's a pretty common lament among adult diagnosed , um, yeah . ADHD people.

Laura: 40:53

Well, and I think, I think there is a common , um, denominator among, at least in our generation, a lot of adult h ADHDers that I know anyway, they were very much overachievers in school. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because like, I guess, you know, the whole thing of like, I don't want there to be something wrong with me. Which

Jonathan: 41:17

Yeah .

Laura: 41:17

Every kid Feels That way .

Jonathan: 41:18

Yeah. You of figure it out. Yeah.

Laura: 41:20

But , um, yeah, I'm trying to think if I have any other questions, but seriously, I'll come be like, Hey kids, what's up, <laugh> ? I'm your weird aunt. You've never met

Jonathan: 41:31

<laugh> . Yeah, right. I I, oh ,

Laura: 41:33

No, I did meet Oliver that one time. He was scared of me.

Jonathan: 41:35

You did <laugh> .

Laura: 41:36

He was scared of me. Yeah ,

Jonathan: 41:37

He was really little then.

Laura: 41:39

He was, it's cool.

Jonathan: 41:40

You know, it's, it , it is interesting because we were talking about people using , um, the placards and, and things, and it's kind of like , um, and it's a few episodes back. I think you, you used the term like, kind of like the benefit . It was the am I an asshole? Yeah . Um , or am I the asshole , uh, episode and you're like, you know, using some of the benefits or like the perceived advantages Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> Right . Of, of having it. And like, I feel like I would be appropriating , uh, you know, misappropriating Yeah . Things if I were to classify myself as disabled. But then I also am like, well, is that because I have a negative connotation of it? And I , I don't

Laura: 42:18

Well, you better not <laugh> .

Jonathan: 42:20

I Don't, no , I , um, I , I can sound like a normal white guy and go, oh, one of my closest friends is <laugh> . in a wheelchair .

Laura: 42:28

And I'll be like, I've never met him before in my life. Yeah . I don't know this dude. Positive my too , but it's actually really interesting 'cause you brought that, 'cause the guy in that story actually had Crohn's disease Mm-Hmm . And like, it was like,

Jonathan: 42:41

Oh, I was listening intently. Yeah . They're

Laura: 42:42

Like, I don't have a bathroom. And I'm like , then don't go . Like, to me, that just seemed like sort of obvious. Like just, just don't go . 'cause even as a person without something like Crohn's disease or a stoma, if I had to go somewhere for five hours and I'm like, there's no bathroom. I don't think so. No, no. Sane person is gonna be like, ah , sure. Sign me up.

Jonathan: 43:09

<laugh> . Well , I actually have, I, I have the choice about when to go with one. Yeah. Um, as long as I am wearing a larger sized bag or not a cap. Yeah . Um , but I could , uh, yeah. But I'm as good as my bladder, so Yeah .

Laura: 43:22

Which, well, you're also a dude. So like,

Jonathan: 43:26

The world is, the world is your urinal when you're a guy. Yeah ,

Laura: 43:29

Yeah . Yeah .

Jonathan: 43:30

Uh, I , the privileges never end when you're a white guy. I can tell you that. I,

Laura: 43:34

It's , uh, really ,

Jonathan: 43:35

It's , it's ,

Laura: 43:36

It's , it's like, it's like you , go through Cancer and everything. And you still came out ahead.

Jonathan: 43:42

I'm still, I'm still the man that Taylor Swift sing's about. Yeah. I, my , um, my , uh, uh, it, it , it is interesting 'cause like there, there's other damage that , uh, cancer doctors are, I , I swear they're the only ones that don't take the hippocratic oath because they do no harm is not in their, in their thought process. It's just kill, kill, kill the cancer. Right? Yeah . Which that's, that's them helping you live. Yeah. Um, so please don't take that offensively if, you know , uh, oncologists happen to be listening to this <laugh> . But , um, but there , there's so many side effects that, that, like, I, I shock people when I say that I don't know that my stoma is in my top three worst side effects of my cancer. Um , yeah . I mean,

Laura: 44:30

I understand

Jonathan: 44:31

That. I don't, it , it's, it's the only visible one. But it, you know, like I, so much damage is done by the radiation treatments and , uh, so much from chemotherapy. Um, like I can't feel anything from my wrist down. I have , uh, chemo caused to neuropathy. Um, I can't feel anything from kind of like mid calf down on my feet. Um, so my balance is not fantastic. And , um, you know, generally you need , um, three things to, to kind of have that , you got your internal gyro and you've got your , the bottom of your feet, and then you have your vision.

Laura: 45:04

Yeah . I know nothing about that. That nothing.

Jonathan: 45:05

You gotta have two of them . You gotta have two of them to , to stand. So if I close my eyes, I lose , lose my balance. Right? Yeah . Like, I, I no longer can stand in the shower and, and keep the water outta my eyes. I have to put my elbow on a wall and like, so that way I can feel something. Right.

Laura: 45:18

Well see. And that, I mean, I think that would be considered disability or disabling, I mean Yeah . Technically,

Jonathan: 45:26

Like I'm just more able to be clumsy, but Yeah. <laugh> no, it is , it is definitely something. But like the , those are the things that , uh, so my, my visible sign is, is definitely not the worst one. 'cause Oh , yeah . You know, my hips , I mean , my hips hurt all the time and.

Laura: 45:42

Mine too.

Jonathan: 45:42

Uh , yes. I know. Yeah. I, I'm not telling you anything, but it's , uh,

Laura: 45:48

I'm just commiserating.

Jonathan: 45:50

Yeah. At this point, it's, it's sharing misery that's way different than comparative. Exactly. Um , but yeah, so like there's, you know, and , and my entire urinary tract was, was scarred. So like, there's just , um, there's lots of side effects that people don't see that actually affect my life more negatively than the thing that they do see. So I think that's also kind of a weird thing placed again, that tweener feeling.

Laura: 46:14

Yeah. I mean, I think that goes along with like chronic illness or chronic pain to people. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you don't see it, but it's super , um, damaging. Sometimes it can be, can really affect , like, I know like , um, one of the shows I do every year where I sell at , uh, both of the women who run it have different chronic illnesses. And so, like, obviously I follow 'em on social media and we're like, you know, acquaintances, friends, whatever. So like, they talk about it and I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like, I get it, man, you know? Yeah . Even though I don't have a chronic illness, knock on wood. Um, like it's, it's so intertwined with the whole thing, which is why I always say people with disabilities and chronic illness, because I'm like, it's all so related.

Jonathan: 47:04

Yeah. And there's no harm from, from inclusivity. Right. There's nothing <laugh> . Um, see , see , seeing or at least hearing them for what they are is, is , is, is probably the most important thing there. But , um, yeah, when it comes down to that question, it's just that , uh, you , you've always been kind of a more of a north star for me in , in this space. Right. Like it's, and so your opinion mattered to me . And , and that was why I was , you know, drawn to ask. And yeah . I think it was our second rehearsal, and I think I thought about it for a while because I was like, also that's kind of a jerky thing to ask, like, to me. Um,

Laura: 47:37

Yeah. But not like , I mean, if if we didn't know each other yes. That would've been like, yeah, you're messed up in the head. What? But because we have such a history, it's absolutely. I mean, like, I like having those kinds of conversations, obviously.

Jonathan: 47:53

Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Like that . I wasn't afraid to ask you because of your reaction. I just was like, is this, you know,

Laura: 47:58

You should have been like , generally

Jonathan: 47:59

Inappropriate

Laura: 48:00

First. Is it okay if I ask you this question?

Jonathan: 48:04

Which I mean, I'm not gonna do that. You know,

Laura: 48:06

I know you're gonna be like, look, I don't care. Um, so, but you know, for the others out there listening, maybe, you know, take a beat. Is this an okay question to ask? But I mean, my verdict is yes, but no. Yes, but no, you , no , it's

Jonathan: 48:23

Very clear.

Laura: 48:23

I mean, you know, like,

Jonathan: 48:26

I don't need a clear definition, so it's okay, <laugh> .

Laura: 48:28

Yeah. I mean, you know why, like , you know, it's, yes, you have this thing that you have to deal with and it creates some limitations, but I think overall your life is basically the same as it was before. Like I

Jonathan: 48:44

Think both of those things are true at the same time.

Laura: 48:46

Yes. Yeah . I mean, I think, you know, it's, it's not, it hasn't irrevocably changed your life in a way that affects you day to day negatively.

Jonathan: 48:59

Yeah. I, I would agree with that statement.

Laura: 49:01

I mean , but, but because there are perks if you've gotta take them , take them , you know, like don't take advantage of them, but you know.

Jonathan: 49:13

Right.

Laura: 49:14

<laugh> don't go crazy.

Jonathan: 49:16

Yeah . Yeah. I think, yeah. But you know, I think having , having a shelf put in the restroom was a completely reasonable ask. And , um, I , you know, they were like, well, do you want one in everywhere? I was like, no, I can actually control, which, you know, yeah . Where I go, if the one closest to my office, that's plenty fine for me. Yeah .

Laura: 49:32

Yeah. Although, I mean, if you could have , I mean, it wouldn't have been a bad , I , like, I'm always thinking like, for the larger population, like it wouldn't have been a bad thing. Right. I mean, but yeah. You know? No. If you're thinking just for yourself, then yeah, that's totally reasonable to be like, I only need it right here. Because I mean, a lot of companies wouldn't have even thought to ask, like, should we put it in everyone ? They would just be like, okay, we're only doing this

Jonathan: 49:58

One. Yeah. This is the one you asked for, and

Laura: 50:00

You're lucky if you got it in the one you wanted . <laugh> .

Jonathan: 50:03

Yeah. And two , I , so I recently moved to a , a different department within my company, and like my new boss, we were, we were talking about something and, and she had come into the office after her son , um, had strep. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And first of all, people don't do that. That's, it's not a cool move ever. But , uh, you know, she literally called me crying at like 9:00 PM because she was like, oh my God, I didn't think that you, you know, you had cancer, so like your immune system and like, I could have put you at risk and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, nah , my immune system's back to normal. I'm, you know, it's totally fine. Like, but you know, it was it, but it took solid 13 hours for her to even consider Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> like , you know , where I'd been, but like, that's okay for me. Yeah . Like that, that didn't bother me. But, you know, I , I was like, I wish you would've considered absolutely everyone in the office. Yeah . Or people who go home to someone with a compromised immune system or another child or, you know, it's like, come on, man. Like,

Laura: 51:06

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I'm, I'm kind of a bad disabled person in that I'm not great about masking up when I go places. Um, and I know that's bad. Like I know I should because I mean, I do run the risk. Like the fact that I had covid as easily as I did when I had it is kind of miraculous. Um, because like my sister had it, she had it the worst and she had it like twice in two months and she, she took it the hardest. And then both my parents had it and they had it kind , not, not super hard, but, you know, it hit 'em pretty hard. Me. I was like, okay, now what? Like, that's it. This is what we've been worried about. <laugh> , <laugh> . Which I know

Jonathan: 51:53

I got it . I got it literally the first week that I could sit down.

Laura: 51:56

Oh, well, at least you could sit down.

Jonathan: 51:59

Oh yeah. <laugh> . Yeah. I got, I mean, I got it , um, September, 2022, so I avoided it for like two and a half years. That's a good run. It's a good run .

Laura: 52:10

Yeah. I mean,

Jonathan: 52:11

Yeah , my wife still hasn't had it. So she's, She's self self-declared immune, but , um,

Laura: 52:18

Yeah, <laugh>,

Jonathan: 52:20

She also works from home and doesn't, you know,

Laura: 52:21

You know, who else is self-declared Immune? Donald Trump <laugh> . Mm-Hmm.

Jonathan: 52:26

<affirmative> now He's already had it.

Laura: 52:28

Yeah . I don't mean covid

Jonathan: 52:30

<laugh>. Oh yeah . <laugh> from criminal prosecution because

Laura: 52:34

I was the president. Okay. Well I , that's getting way off topic , but yeah, so I mean, I think this was good. Thank you so much for being here.

Jonathan: 52:43

Uh , literally my pleasure. This was really fun. All right . And guys, hey, if you have any questions for John , be sure to hit me up in email or on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok , you know, where I am. And I will have all of John's , uh, social media. He's gonna have a website, all your links working on it. Yeah. You're gonna send me all the links. He's gonna send me all the links. I'll have them , um, in the episode notes, and I will post 'em on social media. And thanks for li listening, and I will talk to you in the next one.